Well written post.

But you’re partly (significantly?) wrong when you say “The “anti-Found” ones have just sat there watching in frustration on why a decent app couldn’t have been better”. Not my interpretation. The way I read it, the anti-Found group thinks the app shouldn’t have been funded. Everything else (NRF / incubators / good-advice / bad-advice / DEMO / government-investment / yada-yada) is linked to that core.

Here’s the reality: a team of smart people decided to build an app. Another team of smart people decided to fund it. The former group might have been wrong. Or not. The latter group might have been wrong. Or not. Time will tell.

The fact that Danny has been open about the mistakes he made speaks volumes about who he is, especially given our Asian culture (mine too, btw!) where publicly admitting a mistake is still difficult. His openness is therefore worthy of respect. On the other hand, the fact that some people feel the need to make snide comments anonymously is not.

- Varun (the unTalented Foreigner).

First you say the contest is organized to benefit us startups. Then you say all we can get is a link and some plastic. Obviously not! It’s the promised exposure that might go to undeserving parties. You promised us exposure if we do well, but now that’s being threatened by a flawed voting system.

I fooooound all these interesting.
Perhaps there should be interviews done with co-founders of Found on why they left?

Nah they’ve all got enough publicity as it is

LOL Looooost I know you mean well but I think nobody wants to write any article on Found anytime soon. It’ll be like opening another can of worms deliberately.

Good post. My two cents – have reviews from users – like in the app store and cnet etc. 

As I recognize myself (@erwanmace:twitter  on Twitter) in your…
“Yes, like one of the nominees said, you can take the URL of your app’s voting button and use curl or wget to call it however many times you want to up your vote. Go ahead, do it”

… I thought I’d react here to the two issues your post is addressing:

1. yes it is all about the community and Singapore needs to build not only a strong community but a solid ecosystem if we want to start seeing successful services and applications emerge out of our little island. Regarding Found, it is clearly a pity that most comments on the Found post were direct critics towards the founders rather than constructive comments to help them improve an app in which they’ve invested tremendous time, sweat and efforts over the past 2-3 years.

2. regarding the Top 50 apps competition and the security hole that I disclosed this morning. I have been very disappointed by the lack of reaction and replies on twitter despite my many warnings. I am even more surprised by your post and your “Go ahead, do it” which I can only hope is not addressed to me. If I had wanted to exploit that security hole, the last think I would have done was to disclose it. I would also have added tens or hundreds of votes to my apps rather than the 2 required to show you the trick. But you failed to realize that it is also in the interest of the community that, if a voting system is implemented, the community of developers and users can feel confident that the vote and the people choice award will be an accurate representation of their vote, a true representation of the app that actual users believe is most useful to the various communities in Asia.

There is no shame to face and recognise a security issue, the least you could have done was:
- show some gratitude and thank the honesty of the person (me in this case) who revealed it and who would have helped you fix it (freely, for the sake of the community)
- cancel the vote and the people choice award, or reset the counters after fixing the bug.

Since none of the above has been observed, and whether or not some developers have already abused that trick, the trust in your award has been broken. Unless you decide to address the situation properly, I would kindly request you to resign my two apps (Frenzapp and Muslim Pro) from your contest.

Thanks
Erwan
 

Thanks Erwan for the comments. I didn’t point you out in the comment because I wanted to keep this neutral. 

As for security measures, we understood that it was hackable when we implemented it. The reason why we are sticking to our guns is because we had to choose between a fast voting platform that is hackable or a slow, prohibiting one that may be more secured. We went with the earlier with the aim that it’ll be more community-friendly. This was all done on trust. If our voting system has been severely hacked, then I guess the community isn’t as matured as we thought it was. 

When I said “go ahead” in my post above, I meant if you think that’s all you are, that you need to hack the voting system to get into the Top 50 because your app on its own won’t make it, then there’s nothing I can do to stop you. Every system is hackable one way or another. 

We are not running away from addressing this situation. We thank you for pointing it out. And if you are set on withdrawing your apps, we’ll respect that decision but I strongly believe (fault my faith in the community) that there are still sincere results in this. It’s a lesson to learn and definitely will be considered in future plannings. The People’s Choice Award was put in place to garner the community’s support and enthusiasm. The rest of the awards are really what we are looking for in terms of highlighting and rewarding people who have done something innovating and life changing. If the winner for the People’s Choice Award was won via a hack, let that lie on their conscience. I’m not here to judge, I’m here to support a community. Each in his own way.

Hi Aen, thanks for youe input. I take fault in my sentence that probably wasn’t phrased well. That part about the plastic and link, it was aimed at those that are thinking of winning through hacking the system. Sincerely, I’m supporting this award because it can help build the community by bringing the exposure and recognition that these apps can benefit from. We can’t control if the exposure goes to undeserving parties, then again who are we to judge who is undeserving?

Let the one who has no sin throw the first rock. Integrity and maturity is what I expected from this community. I may be wrong but I trust in people. 

Thanks Varu. Really appreciate you taking the time to understand me. I tend to take a more neutral approach to things. It’s the best way to keep a level head :)

Couldn’t have said it better. I hope they get it.

Thanks Joash, however:
- I had to make real noise on your blog and mine to get a reaction from you. I am part of that community which you are claiming to interact with;- the tone in your article was just wrong;- the community as a whole might be smart and matured enough but there will always, especially when such visibility is at stake, people to abuse the system;- nobody was asking for a bullet proof voting system capable of surviving the best hackers of the world. But once the flaw, a simple one to fix, has been identified, it would been fair to show the community (the honnest ones) that you guys cared by fixing it.

- in the light of your latest comment, yes please remove my two apps and good luck to all the other developers…

“we understood that it was hackable when we implemented it.”we could have prevented it but we didn’t.

“The reason why we are sticking to our guns is because we had to choose between…”
We rather boost the numbers with fake votes than have real ones.

“We went with the earlier with the aim that it’ll be more community-friendly.”
Anything that requires proof of identity is less community-unfriendly.

“Every system is hackable one way or another.”
We were too lazy to use one that is at least less hackable and people will be more impressed with the number of votes than their credibility.

“We are not running away from addressing this situation.”
We gave you a couple of excuses and a blog post. What more do you want?

“The People’s Choice Award was put in place to garner the community’s support and enthusiasm. The rest of the awards are really what we are looking for…”
The People’s Choice Award isn’t really an award, don’t bother trying to win. We put it there so people can hack it and show enthusiasm. Only the judges can tell what’s innovative anyway so the real awards are the other ones.

Thanks for the quick reply Erwan. Will respect your decision. Sometimes, it helps to understand that we may be preoccupied with our work to reply everyone but we are acting on it.

I like how you analyze things in detail. Takes a lot of experience and it’s a great skill to have. My suggestion, try to look at the overview. Context may be distorted if you single them out. Thanks for the comments though. It’s thought provoking. If you don’t value the People’s Choice Award, other do so we’ll stop insulting them shall we?

You should ask the sponsor, SingTel, what they think should be done. Surely this isn’t good publicity for their contest.

I should’ve mentioned, my commendations were in connection with the Found part of your post, not the Top 50 Apps part (which I didn’t read until now and, having read it, emphatically disagree.)

If there’s an award, and if there’s a voting system, it has to work right. If someone takes the trouble to inform you that there’s something wrong, the correct course of action is to recognize them for it and FIX the problem, rather than trying to put a spin on it. You’re annoyed? With respect, you don’t have the right. If anyone’s annoyed, it should be the developers who’re participating in the contest, a contest whose credibility is tarnished. I empathize with the eventual winner who won’t truly win the community’s respect – after all, “did s/he REALLY deserve it?”

Bottomline: If the views expressed are e27′s, then the site’s credibility is screwed. If the views expressed are yours, the e27 “founders” need to step up to the plate and distance the site from it.

- V.

Wrong. Wrong understanding of the community response and VERY wrong response to a post.

The outpouring is precisely because people DO value the award, an award whose credibility YOU have tarnished through inaction and spin. Look, I have nothing against you, I don’t know if I’ve ever met you (getting forgetful as I get balder), you’re probably a great guy, but this spin HAS TO STOP. When everyone is saying “x”, perhaps the answer is really “x” and not “a and b and c and d”.

Until you prove you’re capable of handling negative feedback, you shouldn’t have posting rights on e27 – you’re damaging the brand severely with each message you post.

- V.

Hi Varun, thanks again for your input. My neutral approach was in reply only to your interpretations the “anti-Found” group. 

With regards to the comments on the Top 50 Apps. Yes, choice of words may not be my forte. I apologize for that. We understand the concerns of the developers and are working towards addressing this as best as we can. 

Let me say first, godammn, that found post has a lot of comments, can everyone please comment on the lobangclub post so our product can have more attention!

2nd, this is what a real community is, a real community is not just cheerleaders and sunshine, that’s a figment of somebody’s imagination, a real community is full of haters and critics, and yes, shit can get personal.  But that’s ok, that is what a real community is. 

3rd, we supposed to be entrepreneurs, how the fuck are we supposed to conquer the world if we can’t even deal with haterz on the internet.  

Stop tearing people down?  I say do it more, we need more lively debate, not this pussyfooting let’s not step on people’s toes shit.  If you can’t hack it, you have no business trying to do a startup anyway.

Flame on people, flame on.

With all due respect, what you guys are calling “inaction and spin” without understanding what we are doing behind the scenes is a rather bias call. 

The positioning of us as sitting back and not taking your feedback seriously is, sorry to say, rather insulting. I don’t think I have met you face to face and I do hope we will get a chance so that maybe you can hear my side of the story? I’m personally involved in this project and that’s why I feel “annoyed”. We set out to do something for the community and get attacked from both sides. Pure passion and intention while trying to use the limited resources that we have, at least try to understand us before coming on full force. 

Your post did not say you’re doing something about it. It implied you had no intention to. Simple as that.

Much better. :-)

BTW, if you’re writing for the site, choice of words HAS to be your forte… it’s not optional, sir, it’s mandatory. :-)

- V.

Joash, unveil the whole story. Read my morning tweets. No attack whatsoever, just an attempt to help. 

As I said and because we (bloggers, developers, entrepreneurs, corporations such as Singtel, authorities such IDA and MDA, and of course users) are trying to build a strong community in Singapore and its region, it is important to support each others and respect each others. I repeat, I would have helped you fix the flaw for free, had you only replied to my tweet and email which you decided to ignore.

The only attack came as a reaction to this post. It would have taken you one minute to reply my tweet and say “thanks erwan, we’re committed to fix it, feel free to help”. You could not find that one minute but could find much more time to write a post which lacked respect to the community in all aspects:

- you do not value the genuine votes of the genuine users by allowing others to abuse it

- you do not value the work of the developers and the difficulties they have, especially in this region, to gain visibility for their app. Being part of Asia’s top 50, or even winning the award, is a huge milestone that can kick off the downloads of an app.

- you do not value the active members of the community (me and few others for this case) by ignoring our messages and request to fix your system.

This blunt post is a nice read. Can see your frustrations with lots of things here. 

Still, you have admitted you are not doing anything with a flawed system, and that this People’s Choice Award is pointless. 

I laughed out loud at this comment. @guyishen:disqus , you rock — this was an unexpected delight in the comments section to this post. :D

On a separate note, how about turning off anonymous comments? I find that the really good, interesting discussions on e27 (be they controversial) to be from people with their identities attached. The trolls are almost always anonymous cowards, and I have to skip past them to get to the reasonable stuff.

Another lobang from lobangclub :) the hits keep on coming!

This.

Critique of what isn’t working is as valid as celebrating what is working. 

Critique of investment decisions and poorly executed product is valid. As is saluting the tenacity of individuals and teams who go through the crappy parts of trying to create a business out of nothing.

What isn’t debatable is startups are an activity in which personality, emotion and opinion loom large, because it’s small groups of humans trying new and stressful things. Apathy is the worst thing that can happen.

A solution: someone hacks the vote and makes Found the winner. Job done?

hi erwan Macé,

I am just one person closely watching the award. Their may be always few ups an downs to all such events. It will be learning for all of us. I strongly support Joash, But you really seems to be making a big issues and big noise, if you are not interested it’s well, please keep calm. I feel you are trying to make a some cheap publicity.

PS. I am not part of any website. I am just making my note.

get some life!

Cheers

good post, I agree, at the end of the day, doesn’t matter if they game the system, so what, if your app suck, your app suck

Wilson, I’m sorry that you see my actions as trying to get publicity. I can only affirm that you are wrong, for the single reason, in case you have not read it, that I will be leaving the developer scene in a few weeks to go back to a corporate jobs. The last thing I need at the moment is publicity (my apps will be shut down or sold).

Of course not everyone is doing such unethical kind of votes. Maybe no one is. Maybe just one or two are. My point was that, once the hack had been discovered, it’s a lack of respect to all developers and voters, for e27 not to react to it.

I hope this will help you understand the whole story better.

Nice work Joash, Jacky. I think that it’s a big positive if people care enough about what goes on within this blog to comment passionately. Better to have that and the inadvertant trolling, than to have absolute silence.
Can we please talk about controversial vacation rentals now? lol

Why do startup in Singapore need a shoulder when its crying over a fall.

Damn.

Why do startup keep focusing on funding?

Startup should be inspired by company like Github who get 0 funding and run by profit.

Any business should be doing that.

Its going to be sucky when you choose to be a startup.

These media keep portraying them wrongly giving people the wrong impression.

Remember Steve Jobs?
When he come back from Apple trying to keep an almost bankrupt company afloat?
Remember Bill Gates say he doesn’t understand why he is trying, he know he can’t win.
Where everyone tell Steve Jobs to stop the vertical integration thingy at Apple, its not working.
And looks where they were now.

If you don’t have that kind of character, you are not cut for it.

Stop posting here and go do something. Walk the talk guys.

You want to stop the criticism, you have to just have to do it and proof people wrong.

So why waste time explaining to these people who almost not going to change their opinion?

You just gonna waste your time.

Just to expand on my point.

When you startup, you know the maths is not going to be on your side.

Your chances of failing is like 99%.

So if you haven’t realize that when you startup, you almost going to be in for a big surprise.

[...] ticked him off this week. It’s an interesting, long post. You can head over to his blog post to catch it in full. But here’s my quick [...]

Hi everyone, I am heartened to see the entire community all fired up over this issue. I am also disappointed at some of the events that happened and I will be posting a post on this really soon.

Please work with us to improve things and work towards a common cause for a better startup community!

[...] to subscribe to the RSS feed for updates on this topic.Powered by WP Greet BoxI made a mistake, mishandled a simple situation that could have been done better. I guess I got carried away with the Found saga and went on to bash the wrong things regarding [...]

[...] made a mistake, mishandled a simple situation that could have been done better. I guess I got carried away with the Found saga and went on to bash the wrong things regarding [...]

total opportunist! (awesome)

[...] e27 community manager posted a blunt story about their flawed voting [...]

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[...] about this each time you click that hacked “Vote” button of yours. … Read more on e27 Tags: Call, Download, Duty, Hack, Latest, [...]